Not a Man. Not a Woman. Beyond the Binary with Joy Matthews

In this episode of 'Cocoon,' we sit down with Joy Matthews, a black queer health educator and volunteer coordinator at Together for Mental Wellbeing in the UK. Joy shares their journey of navigating complex relationships with their family, overcoming trauma, and redefining their mental health. They discuss the importance of community care, empathy, and a holistic approach to mental wellbeing. Joy reflects on their identity, experiences of dysmorphia, and the importance of staying true to oneself amidst societal pressures. Join us for an enlightening conversation about resilience, self-discovery, and the transformative power of care.

00:00 Introduction to Joy Matthews

01:34 Joy's Relationship with Parents

02:12 Overcoming Childhood Trauma

03:37 Navigating Mental Health and Identity

05:29 Reconnecting with Family

11:12 Stereotypes and Self-Discovery

14:08 Gender Identity and Body Image

24:07 Challenges in the Mental Health System

26:41 Daily Work and Mental Health Coaching

33:43 Facing Fears and Social Conventions

34:17 Understanding and Empathy in Trans Experiences

34:54 Personal Reflections and Advice to Younger Self

37:17 Family Acceptance and Personal Identity

39:31 Spirituality and Mental Health Journey

42:44 Embracing Opportunities and Personal Growth

54:07 Navigating Relationships and Social Perceptions

59:29 Closing Thoughts and Final Reflections

Transcript

Quincy 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to Cocoon. After Dark Joy, Matthews moves through the world with a quiet power, a bridge between lived experience and systemic change. As a black queer health educator and volunteer coordinator at Together for Mental Wellbeing in the uk, they weave empathy into structure, turning care into something communal, not clinical. Their story is one of inheritance and intention shaped by parents who taught them what integrity sounds like and action, and what love can do when it shows up for the hard conversations. Joy's work doesn't just touch lives. It restores dignity where the system forgot to look. Hey, joy, welcome on.

Joy 0:41

That was

Speaker 8 0:41

so nice. I've never

Speaker 6 0:42

heard someone speak to me like about me like that before, so it's really nice

Speaker 8 0:47

to hear that.

Quincy 0:48

Oh, you're so welcome. You're so welcome. Thanks for coming on. We found each other, everyone, in case you're wondering because obviously you can hear Joy has an accent and yes, they are in the UK and I am still in la. Um, but we found each other on LinkedIn and I just fell in love with their posts and their messaging and things like that. So we're gonna get right into it. Joy, you work with the very marrow of mental health training, holding space and shaping how care reaches people in the uk, but you're also someone who lives at the intersections of black identity, queerness and health networks. That's not just a job that's a lived in embodiment. So you've shared that your parents were crucial in defining who you are today, shaping your values and the way you lead and love and care for others. So can we start there?

Speaker 8 1:34

Yeah, I have a really complicated relationship with my parents, actually. Um, I don't speak to my dad anymore. I don't speak to him at all. Um, me and my mom only started speaking again, um, this year, last year. So we didn't have a relationship for 24 years of my life, so

Quincy 1:51

Wow.

Speaker 8 1:52

it's been wild. So. I had a lot of PTSD, a lot of trauma, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of things from my childhood that I couldn't get over. I literally couldn't get over. Like I remember just thinking like, how could parents do this to their kids again and again and again. I just couldn't think, I couldn't wrap my head around the situation I was put inside of. But honestly, looking at psych, like looking at psychology, looking at like self-help books, looking at all this kinda stuff, looking at my brain from a different angle has enabled me to, just gave me the tools to actually, I don't know, not reverse PTSD, but actually step into PTSD and what is it? What is mental health? And I think from learning from my mental health, my mental health and my mistakes, I was able to be like, okay. There's so much more to health, mental health, fitness, all this kinda stuff than we think there actually is. We think it's just a one size all solution. Okay. Give someone pills. They have PTSD, they have bipolar. It really isn't like that. And like I have suffered truly, but I can honestly say that I'm so grateful for every single thing that's happened to me. Like it's, it's mad, but I think a lot of people think that, I think people see photos of me and my mom or they see the posts that I put on the internet and they think, okay, you have a great relationship with your family. Your family's always been there for you, but at the end of the day they haven't like, so it's, it's a wild one for me where, where I am right now. But yeah, I'm quite happy to kinda share that. Really.

Quincy 3:15

What was the main reason that they sort of booted you out of their life or that you chose to not have conversations with them?

Joy 3:22

My

Speaker 8 3:23

mom was a very emotionally. Irrational person. I would say. I think my mom, my mom moved from Nigeria when she moved from to Nigeria to the UK when she was like 20, I would say early twenties. And I think from then she didn't understand her own mental health, so she had a kid, that kid got taken away and got into care. So that was a massive thing for her. So she lost a kid, basically. Still doesn't talk to her. Um, and then my dad was quite abusive to her physically. Sorry. Uh, verbally. People were abusive to her physically. I think she kind of like was dealing with autism, dealing with a DHD, all this kind of like di um, diagnosis that we had to stay and that we kind of like, take care of. She didn't understand them. She didn't, wasn't told that she was any of this. So she was creating so many problems, creating so much drama, like financial problems, house problems, like, and it was like so much she used to physically abuse us, mentally abuse us. Right. So it's like. My childhood was very much not a childhood because of her, but because of that, I can only be so grateful because she taught me that all the lessons I need today. Like for example, I used to have to like wash my hands, like wash my clothes by hand, right? So I would have to wash my clothes in fucking cold water. Sorry, I didn't mean to swear, but in cold water all the time as like every single, like five words is a swear word, I swear. But um, yeah. So I used to have to wash all my clothes, wash all my school clothes, all this stuff because I didn't have a washing machine. But look at today, my washing machine broke and everyone's like, what do we do? What do we do? And it's like, I'm going to the lat. I'm like, guys, you can go to the laundry. You can do this, you can do that. Like you can wash your clothes. So like the life lessons I have today are literally, I've become so strong because of her that she gave me everything I need to know about living as a person. And even now. I can fully talk to her about spirituality, about myself, because she has evolved to a deeper level where she is the, like the bigger version of me. She's gone through everything. She's gone through autism, she's gone through people not accepting her, she's gone through racism, she's gone through like all this kind of stuff, breakups, relationships, abuse, and who can I turn to to talk about that her? So if anything, I've literally got like a inbuilt, like best friend that I never knew and I'm just discovering now. So I think my life right now is very much discovery, discovering myself and then using that to teach other people. And I think that's what really, really like why I'm here. Really? So, yeah.

Quincy 5:40

You are so sweet. And know yourself, you know, I can feel when you're talking about it, I can feel your pain and I can see your pain on your face, but you've, you've used it with not as a weapon, but as such an amazing tool. And I wonder how you talked to your mom about your pain that you suffered because of her.

Joy 6:02

It is interesting because, um, I couldn't communicate. I was really badly communicating. So my communicating was through getting angry, shouting, um, crying like me, and I remember just staring at my mom's house and just having violent outbursts. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and I would literally like scream because I was so much, so much pain. I remember I've been like, I remember I was, I moved out of London. I had to move outta London because someone assaulted me, so someone assaulted me. I broke my leg. I, I've left London, I've gone to my mom's house. Yeah, it was wild, right? So I went to my mom's house and. I was like sleeping in like my childhood bunk bed with like all my stuff. And it was like horrible. It was just like such a horrible time. And I would wake up in the middle of the night and have like panic attacks and be screaming and stuff, and my mom wouldn't be able to like know what to do. And I'd be angry at my mom because I'd be like, it's your fault. I'm in this situation. It's your fault that I'm like in pain. It's your fault that I'm like, I've not learned how to save money and stuff. But then I was realized that it's not anyone's fault. It's not like over time I was like, I just realized this, but it's literally not anyone's fault. Like it's your life to decide what to do. Um, but yeah, it's wild. It's wild. And I think me and my mom are very like the same, like we watch the same videos, we'll send each other like lectures and stuff or stuff you watch on YouTube or send each other spirituality stuff. And it's just so, I just honestly can't even understand how we're in this relationship, but how we're in this like situation right now compared to what we were. But yeah, I just never was able to communicate with anyone. My communication levels were very low. But now I'm very much like, if I've got a problem, I will speak about it. I will talk about it. And I'm not afraid of pain anymore because I've been through the pain that I needed to go through. And I think now I'm just like, let me have it really. So yeah.

Quincy 7:42

Yeah. I, I feel you. That's, it's so empowering to have taken that pain and been like, wow, I can make different choices. I can look at someone differently. I can think about this differently. I can pause. I use this technique where I wait for 24 hours. If in 24 hours it still bothers me enough to have their conversation, then I do. I don't text anything that's gonna hurt somebody. I don't email anything. If someone starts yelling at me on the phone, I say, if you're gonna yell, I'm gonna have to hang up. Like I'm very intentional about confrontation and I hate it, but, and I want to solve it. But it's something that I've really consciously chosen.'cause I grew up in a screaming family. Right. And you just feel so alone when you're like, well I didn't even cause it, but everyone's mad at me too. You know? It's that, that sort of guilty by association, right? Well, if mom was mad at dad, then she's mad at the kids and vice versa. And we're just like running and ducking from your parents. But I'm glad you guys got back to a place where you like just even send each other stuff and relate to each other. It must feel good and probably you're still a little bit cautious at times with her.

Speaker 8 8:56

you know what it is. It's like slowly by slowly I see our, our relationship evolving every single time and the like. I think the changing point for me is when I was able to call her, I think literally two days ago, I had a really bad friend breakup. Was it two days ago? I think it was this week or last week. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's really sorry, but like also I'm very grateful it happened because it made me realize a lot. It made me realize a lot about myself and, um, what you said about waiting 24 hours before confrontation is something that I really need to learn because I'm really like, at this stage, I'm just like, okay, I just wanna confront everything now I just wanna like talk to everybody. But I also need to hold back and think, is this the right situation? Am I saying this to the right person? What do I want from the outcome really? Um, but I spoke to her about my friendship breakup and it was something that was really painful to me. And I just talked to her. I just talked to her openly. Like every single thing I wanted to say openly. I didn't hold back whatsoever, but as soon as she told me, you just start saving money, I literally like kicked off'cause like stop telling me what to do. So I still have that mentality in my head of I'm going to kick back or I don't like being told what to do and that's something that I wanna work on, but I know that I can work on that and I know that our relationship's in a good place. But, um. Yeah, it's, it's a wild one'cause things be falling apart all around. Like people will be like breaking up washing machines, be broken. I'm having argues with my housemates, but I'm have a great, I have a great relationship with my mom, which I've never had before. So it's kind of like, it proves to me that I'm more emotionally mature and I'm like, I don't know, AR anger doesn't always mean someone doesn't love you as well, so it's always important to notice that as well. So, yeah.

Quincy 10:33

That's great. Evolving. And I, I think that the more you see that when we have kids, right? Because I have kids of my own as much as sometimes things they do irritate me and things like that, they know, I mean, I'm still a first time mom, even though I've been a mom for 35 years now. I'm still a first time mom to somebody that's 35, but that now has her own two kids. I'm a first time mom at this age with my child that's in middle school. And she'll even say to me, mommy, I know you're just a girl like me. And it's like, it's true. I am just another person trying to help someone else grow into the adult, you know, that they're eventually gonna be. And let's, um, let's talk about stereotypes. Um, so what types of stereotypes or silences do you feel you've had to dismantle not just for others, but within yourself?

Speaker 6 11:26

Mm.

Speaker 8 11:26

That's, that's a wild one actually. I would say, to kick it all off, the first stereotype I had to like kind of ruin for myself was the stereotype of my gender.'cause I never really. I thought that I would be this person. I just always thought I was gonna be like straight, trying to be like everyone else. And that was a stereotype that really hurt me because I never wanted, I, like, I knew kind of in my head that I was like, I wanted to be a kind of non-binary person. I wanted to be in the gay community, but I didn't really want to accept it because that was so against the norm for everything. So I was just like, I really don't want this to happen. I really don't want this to happen. So doing that and like being myself was like the biggest, I think the biggest change for me. Um, I would say stereotypes in general. I think people really assume that I am, um, just like this, I don't know this crazy person that goes out all the time and just like sleeps with loads of people and whatever. And I'm really just not like, I work for like two charities and I do like random stuff. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, I think people have this assumption like assumption to me that I'm like just a bit of a dick and I'm just really not. And I think, yeah, a lot of the time and I've had a lot of arguments with people who. I don't know. I might be insecure about themselves and they feel insecure about me and they push it insecurities on me. And it's a lot of projection, I think. And I think a lot of people see me and they project their insecurities onto me or they really love me. It's, it is one or the two. And I find that a lot with people. And it's like, if people are not secure in themselves, they will. They will. They will come at me. And I just, I've learned that a lot. I've learned that a lot. So it's just coming. It just comes with a package of, I don't know, of presenting yourself in a certain way. And being an not extroverted, I wouldn't say I'm extroverted. I'm just like, I just choose to be open and I choose to just be out there. And I think a lot of people, some people can't handle that. And I think, yeah, but it's also thinking about what's their problems. It's not always just about me. It's always about them. So it's like. It's, it is a wild one. It's a wild one. It's just, it's like, it's something that's coming up in my life a lot. Like as soon as I, as soon as I kind of like, I don't know, had a glo up, I guess, or started being more trans or being more in the gay community, I find a lot of trans people resist me because of the way that I look and it's, uh, it comes, yeah, it's a bit of a problem, but for me, I see it as a good thing'cause it does really show, I, I just like psychology. I like why people think certain things and certain things like that. But yeah. Sorry, that's rambled on a little bit, but Yeah.

Quincy 13:49

No, it's a good, it's a good answer because it's something you're still processing on a daily basis. Right. And as you are becoming more trans, how do you eventually wanna identify and what will your language be around, around that once you get there, are you sort of prepping yourself for that? Or are you using that same vocabulary already?

Joy 14:08

This is the thing, like I. Never wanted to be a man and I never wanted to be a woman because I truly believe in, I dunno if you know about yin yang and two sides of the personality and the ma masculine and the femininity and like the two, I really do believe in that so strongly. And for some reason I started getting red and black tattoos and then, then I started looking into yin yang and I was like, oh, it all makes sense. This is why I'm doing this, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I just, I find that whole, dunno the history of like all the history of just the different sides of masculine and feminine. So interesting that I just can't tear myself apart from it because I truly believe that I am. I've got two souls and I think everyone else does, and I think everyone else has else, has a different percentage of masculine and feminine depending on who they are. But for me, I just feel so, so, feel so ambiguous that I don't care. But I also feel like whoever is gonna talk to me, they're gonna use what pronouns they're gonna think whatever they think. They're always gonna put me in a box of whatever they think, and I cannot change that no matter what I say. If I say I'm a man, they're gonna still gonna call me a woman. If I say I'm a woman, they're gonna call me a man. It doesn't matter. I could say I'm a sheep, no one's gonna call me a sheep. Like I just need to be what I am and whatever I present as is not for anyone else. So, and that's why I'm so against of getting surgery right now, because am I getting surgery for me or am I getting surgery so other people can see that I'm a man? So it's like, I don't know. I really don't know. And that's why I'm just like, I don't even know, like I'm not even getting any more tattoos at the moment because I just feel like I'm just so out of body, so focused on what's going on inside and focused on like my work that I just don't really care what I look like. Right now. My, my presentation is like the least of my worries, I think. Mm-hmm.

Quincy 15:43

Okay.'cause that, that was gonna be my next question was how do you feel in your body? Like dysmorphia or just sort of nowhere in between. You're just, like you said, you're taking a break, letting the volunteering and work and all that kind of stuff more consume you and you'll come back to that when you're ready.'cause you're young still, you're very young. You're, if I'm gonna guess, you're in your late twenties, early thirties at the most.

Speaker 8 16:08

27. People always think I'm like 16. Like, it's so funny. Like at work they're like, you're such a teenage boy. That's the other thing, I haven't even told my gender to anyone, but everybody at work, including all the old people, think I'm a boy. And I'm just like, okay, fine. Like, I'll, I'll allow it. Yeah.

Quincy 16:24

That's.

Speaker 8 16:24

just so funny. But like the day they find out, it's just gonna be so like funny. But also I don't care. Like it's there. They've decided to put me in that box. I don't care. It's happy, it's happy for me. But yeah, I'm so young. I'm so young. And do I feel dysmorphic? Yeah, I think I do. And I think I struggle with our body image, and I think I've always struggled with it because I've, I've been happier and I've really struggled with eating disorders and eating too much and not liking my body where I've had to, like, where I've been like binging and not binging and like, um, starving myself. And I've done that for like 20 years and I'm finally in a place where I'm not, I'm healthy and I'm happy, but I look at my body and honestly I think I literally just see like skin, I see people when I don't, I don't see. Beauty anymore. I think I spent so much time in the, in the fashion industry, I see, I see beauty. I think people are beautiful, but I don't care about like extreme amounts of beauty. I think I've seen so much extreme amounts of beauty like shoved in my face constantly. Constantly in the modeling industry, in the industry that I'm in, in the, like on Instagram, I just don't care anymore. And I think it's like, I just don't know. I just don't, I just don't know. And I think I've read so many books about spirituality and like coming outside of your body and stuff and I just, I just, I can't mesh the two anymore and I just think I'm such in a place where I just, I don't know, I really just don't know what's going on. But I, sometimes I look at my body, I just don't like it. I just see it and I just think, I just dunno what, who embody is meant to look like. I'm just like, I just look like an alien. And that's fine. And that's literally fine. And the more I think about it, I just, yeah, it just makes me a bit stressed out and I think look at myself and there's so many things I don't like, but I'm just like, is it important? Is it really important? And yeah, it's just asking myself the questions every time I kind of. Hate on myself. Like why do you hate on myself? Like why do you not like this? But yeah, it doesn't stop you from feeling sad about it. At the end of the day, like everybody has a perception of their body, good or bad. And this is why I like my job.'cause people are allowed to change it. If you want to like have abs, you can have abs. If you want to lose weight, lose weight. If you want to gain weight, gain weight, what? Why not? Like, why not? We're living in these physical bodies made of cells that don't really exist. Do what you want. You've got like 50 summers left to get the dream body do it. Like I've done that. I've got the six pack, I lost it. I just like,

Joy 18:35

yeah.

Quincy 18:37

So, what does your dream body look like or your dream life look like, and what does your dream partner look like and how do they. Accept you? Like when they're accepting you, what do you want them to accept you as?

Speaker 8 18:52

Ooh, that's actually really interesting. Um, so I see myself as like quite masculine. I think I fell in love with looking at. I think my ideal body came from looking at really like skinny, kind of like trans people, but with like with muscles. So like lean physiques of muscles, but like really small tits basically. So like kind of like shredded, but also just like really muscular. I think I fell in love with that idea, so I kind of just started building that. I started becoming just like lean bit muscular, like really, really like lean, but not obviously not too lean. And I think that's the ideal kind of body type. I like, kind of like athletic kind of-ish, and I think I want my partner and I don't know, I'm quite masculine presenting and I quite like people that are feminine presenting, but I'm also just like, I used to sleep with men in the past, like before I was gay. And then I just, I don't know, just, I just started thinking, is this what I really want? Do I really want someone that looks like the exact feminine kind of picture just because that's what I think I should want or do I actually want that because I've been dating, I don't know, for a bit, sorry, my focus on slipping off the um. The homemade tripod ichy my mirror. Um, but yeah, do I actually want that? Or is it something that's shoved in my face? And I actually like that. So dating for me is quite hard at the moment because I don't know, I'm having a lot of conversations, but I'm really like thinking about the next steps, like thoroughly for me, I'm really questioning them, like, is this really what I want? Like, and I, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of red flags that I never used to see before.'cause I think I'm just a different person when it comes to that. So yeah, I would ideally want someone that's like, I don't know, I like people that are really pretty, like really feminine presenting, but I don't know if that is what I really need. So who knows?

Quincy 20:42

Yeah, that I can imagine that would be tough because. your head, you can kind of see that. But once you get into that full body acceptance for yourself and you've been able to drop the the dysmorphia that you're having, how does that look for you? Because I look at myself currently being single and look at other people and think, well, they wouldn't be attracted to me because I'm not queer looking enough. And I had this conversation with somebody recently. I'm not queer enough. I'm just a very feminine female presenting lesbian, but I'm very masculine on the inside. I'm a double Scorpio. I'm a single mom. I, you know, raise my daughter to be as strong as she can possibly be. And she sees me, you know, solving the world's problems and solving our household problems and things like that. So I feel this very masculine energy, but. And sometimes I feel I'd like wanna dress more masculine, but a lot of times I like to look like just a woman, you know, not sexy necessarily or anything like that. I did go through that, but it's like who am I gonna end up attracting at this point? You know, where I've gotten to the age that I am, I'm a Gen Xer, and how do you move into this next territory? And do I wanna attract someone that's feminine or do I wanna attract somebody that's more mask because I've dated both and loved both, you know? So it, you're still gonna be questioning it as well. I'm gonna say even when you get to your fifties, stam it.

Speaker 8 22:17

That's the thing, isn't it? When you start coming from the standpoint of who am I gonna attract versus. Who am I? I think it's a lot different.'cause I used to come from the point of like, I'm not, this is, I think this is why I started addressing more masculine. I remember going on a date with someone, um, who now actually ended up being on a really like, high, like, high like gay dating show, which is wild. I went on a date with them like three years ago and they told me I wasn't masculine enough like four, five years ago. And they were like, oh, you're not enough. But this is when I was, wasn't dressed, dressing as mask as I was. So I felt like I've leveled up. Like every time I moved city, I level up to a new person. Um, but yeah, I wasn't masculine enough and I was just like, that makes me really annoyed because I wanna be masculine. I want to be, um, like, I don't know. I wanna be like a stud. I wanna be all this things. I wanna be like really cool, dah dah, dah, dah. Like, why do you not think I'm masculine? And that really annoyed me so much that I became more masculine. And I don't know if they wouldn't have said that, maybe I wouldn't have become more masculine. Who knows? But like, I don't know, like. I used to always worry about not being masculine enough for people. And then I realized like, if I, I just need to be myself, like people are gonna like you. And I think I saw a quote on Instagram was like, if someone doesn't like you for your feminine side, then they're not gay. Like, if someone like only wants you because you're masculine, then they don't want you at all. They just, they're a straight person wanting a man. And I've seen that a lot. Like a lot of straight women just want you because you look like a man. But when it comes down to being gay, they're just like, they don't wanna know. They literally don't wanna know. And like, I see that a lot and I'm just like very, like, I don't know. Careful now around dating for that reason because a lot of straight people will just use you and I don't want to be used and I don't allow it anyway. Um, so yeah.

Quincy 23:57

Yeah, I don't either. I'm not into training you teaching you being your unicorn, anything like that. I just have no, no interest. Um, if you could redesign the UK's mental health system with three bold moves tomorrow, what would they be?

Speaker 8 24:14

Um, number one, I would, um, disembark the whole of the government. I would take away the, um, the health minister, because I think the health minister is absolutely sh like sham. I dunno if you hear what's going on at the moment in the uk. But they've basically, they've set a rule that no one is allowed, um, that no one's allowed to sell, like deals and sugary products. You're not allowed to have like buy one, get one free chocolate. You're not allowed to have bottomless like sugary drinks at restaurants. You can't have like one more, any more than one degree drink. You're not allowed to buy chocolate in like deals. It is crazy. So, yeah. So I think the government have a really bad, twisted idea of what health is, but I understand why they have that.'cause they have no empathy for the people. Right. So I would just disembark the government. Put in a community government, like places like Netherland, um, not the Netherland, um, um, or the Norway, Switzerland, all that kind of stuff. They were really good community government. Um, number two, I would introduce kind of like, I don't know, community care, because I think therapy's great. Therapy's brilliant. Okay, cool. But how can we make therapy sustainable and integrate it into everybody's life? I think we need to think about that as well. So what tools can we use to actually help people? And three, it is all about body mind connection. We need to learn about our body, mind, and soul. We need to disembark everything that we know about health and mental health and just redesign it. Because we're going off of thousands of years old systems, right? Well, not thousands of years, but the system in the UK or America was invented a long time ago. If we look at health a hundred years, a hundred thousand years ago, a million years ago, the health was so much better. We're looking at like Vedic a medicine. We're looking at holistic practices. We're looking at things that are actually gonna help people without medication. But the other problem is money. We all just want, they just want money to be recirculated. Yeah, I would just look at, look at the government basically.

Quincy 26:02

Those are, that's a good answer. I feel about the. The food. That's interesting that they're trying to limit people from basically choosing to populate their food or their diet with sugar and fats and over drinking and things like that. But at the same time, if the mental health is balanced, people won't feel the need to overeat overdr and things like that because we all know, yes, it's great to tie one on. Sometimes it's great to, you know, eat a ton of sugar sometimes, but we shouldn't be forced not to do those things if our mental health is solid. Right. So on a daily basis, what sorts of things do you confront at work? Like what kinds of programs are you guys working on?

Speaker 8 26:45

So I have very two diff very different jobs. Um, so one of my jobs is, um, I do online coaching. So I do online personal train, um, training. So I help people, well, health coaching. So I help them achieve the goals they want to. But a lot of it is mental health work. There's a lot of like, what barriers are stopping you from getting to the goals you want? And usually it's not because you can't eat 500 calories a day, you should be in anyway, but you should like, it's because they can't under, they can't wrap their head around change. And I think change is a massive thing for people. Once they hit an obstacle, they think, okay, I need to turn back. I can't do this. So it's just reprogramming people's brains into building habits and actually changing their beliefs and perceptions I think is really important. Um, number two, my second job is working as a, um. I was like, I do a system physio for a neurological wellbeing center. So basically they help people that have like strokes, I've had like car crashes. Anything that's going on in like your brain basically. Um, and challenges are a lot because you have like people that are young as like 17 and people that are old as like 19 and they're just so, they're so humbling to see because anything you do in life, like you can start from zero instantly your life could be taken away from you instantaneously and nothing else. Nothing you did mattered at all. Like you could be a billionaire and you could have a stroke and all your family leave you and you have nothing. You have nothing. Like what do you do from then? So it's like, I don't know, like it really made me understand that me materialist objects are not everything. And honestly, it's like changed my life really. But, and the other job I have is, um, fitness coaching. So I coach for a ch like a trans charity in the uk and like we just do fitness coaching. I do that like once a week and. Honestly, the challenges are just helping people get into exercise and people are very receptive, actually. People are very receptive to knowing what to do, asking me questions and stuff. Um, but problems I face, I guess are just, I don't know, just people, people not understanding that the brain is powerful, more powerful than the body, I think. And I think people don't understand that. And I think it's really hard to teach people that, and you can't force that down people's throats. You really need to let them want to know the information. I think that's something I've learned a lot is people will come to you when they want advice. You cannot tell them anything because then they'll backlash. Like I have a lot of, like some friends that I've really struggling at the moment, but I really don't, can't help them because if I help them, it's just gonna make them retreat and they're never gonna talk to me again. So. That's the problem I'm facing really, is really keeping my mouth closed. And not like, but in people's business I think is, so, I, it's, it's hard for me'cause I just wanna help people. I want to be like, just change your diet, change your sugar. That's gonna change everything. But in their head they're like, no, I need to go to the doctors, da dah dah, dah. But yeah, it's really hard actually.

Quincy 29:29

Do you see a lot of, um, other people suffering with body dysmorphia too, especially in the trans people that you're working with while they're transitioning, or is it okay?

Joy 29:42

Sorry, I didn't mean to cut your,

Quincy 29:43

No, no, no. I'm glad that you answered it because I was trying to like fill it in more if it wasn't coming across.

Speaker 8 29:48

it's weird because I was talking to this with my friend yesterday and um, it wasn't a client, but it was a friend. So me and my friend started going to gym together and there a trans woman, so that male to female, and they started crying in the middle of the session. They were like crying so much. And I was like, what's wrong? What's wrong? And they were just like, like, I can't afford the surgery I want. I'm not gonna look like the way I want to look. It's like, and then. I was just thinking like no matter what you do, like, no matter what you do, no matter if you get, you get the whole surgery, you get a vagina done, you literally look like Kim Kardashian, like you walked down the street, some person is still gonna call you a man. No matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter how you look, no matter how you act, you can like minimize yourself for the smallest person possible. Someone's always gonna call you something you don't want. So how are you going to stop? How are you gonna stop that making you feel bad? You could have spent millions and millions of pounds on surgery, but still you're gonna feel bad because people are coming at you. At the end of the day. It's your self. You're changing your inner self. What if you're not happy with your inner self? Nothing you're do in the outward itself is gonna change, but people don't see that. People think, oh, I need to have surgery to be more accepted in the community. No, you need to be more inside yourself. And I think that's something that is really controversial to say in the trans community.'cause a lot of trans, it's, I'm very supportive of surgery. I'm very supportive of it. I think if you wanna do anything, the body. Feel free, you've got a very short life, you might as well do it in this life. Like, but I'm very just like, if people come to me like that, I will question it. I'll be like, you need to question yourself. Like, are you happy? And if you're not happy, surgery's not gonna change that. Chopping your tits off is not gonna change that. It's not gonna make you feel like ma feel like a man, like your energy is a man. Like people I haven't like, um, had the surgery whatsoever, but like seven 80% of people meet me and they think I'm a man. And I think it's because psychologically I became a man. And that's presenting everything you are in your brain is everything you're presenting to the world. And I think that's really hard concept for people to wrap around only because. We don't have the education behind it. We're not taught about these kind of things. We're not taught about our brain and the universe and all these crazy things that are going on. We're just taught, okay, linear, black and white. Yes means no. No means yes. We're not taught about all the in-between lines, and I think that's what we really need to learn. We just need to educate ourselves way much more. But it's, yeah, that's what I find it really hard to talk to friends or coach, friends that are not paying me because I can't say the harsh things without getting a repercussion. So yeah, it's, it is quite hard.

Quincy 32:16

So, because so many people think you're a male, if you don't wanna answer this, you don't have to. What? Are you allowed to use when you're out in public? Is it as crazy? It is as it is in some places here in the States right now, in California it's different, but in places like Texas where they're deciding to find people$150,000, if they use the wrong restroom, what is it like in the UK because it's, that's just preposterous.

Speaker 8 32:42

People call me out on it all the time. Like I go to my gym that I usually go to all the time and I'll get called, oh, you're a man. And da. I remember I posted, um, a reel like on there. I got like a 10 million views.'cause I literally posted about it and someone was like, like, oh, you need to get out of it, da da dah. And I'm like, I've been coming in the changing room all this time, but at the end of the day, I understand why they say it. I understand human beings are judgemental, right? We see something and we go, well, that's weird. And then we, but then we need to understand that there's a response between the brain and the mouth. Okay? So we, we, we can hold things in. We don't have to say everything, but some people don't understand that. And I'm empathetic to that. And we're em, I'm empathetic to the fact that 80 year olds don't really understand trans people. We need to educate. Okay? So I'm not angry that people think I'm a man when I walk into the women's changing rooms because I do look like a man and I'm coming into the women's changing rooms. But I don't like men's changing rooms purely because they smell because. They smell and people piss on the walls. They, they like wear stuff on the walls. They smell. I don't wanna get, like, get changed in front of a man and get assaulted. Like, what? But at the end of the day, if so, it's exactly, it's scary, isn't it? I don't wanna get assaulted by a random man, and like, no, I've just heard horror stories. I do not want to go in there. But the end of the day, if I do get surgery, I'm gonna have to go in there. And that's something that I'm really scared about. So it's like, I understand social convention, I understand people have a different way of looking and I need to, I need to be aware of that. I can't just go around the world and be, I can do whatever I want. I'm just gonna da, da, da. There's already rules in place and people have already set that there's nothing I can do about that. All I can do is adapt to that and help people to understand, right? So there's been loads of situations and sometimes they're really hurtful. But the more and more I go through life, I realize, okay, it's not about me. It's never about me. No one's coming to me maliciously. They're coming to me because they've got problems with themself and they feel attacked in a bathroom. And that's okay. Some people feel attacked, some people feel weird around me. That's okay. That's okay. And it just is what it is. At the end of the day, I'm just gonna have, I just realize I'm gonna have to fight for the rest of my life. I'm just, it's not gonna be a one time thing where I tell someone to go away in the bathroom. It's gonna be every single day. So it's up to me how I react. I can't control it at the end of the day. So, yeah.

Quincy 34:54

Wow. It hurts my heart so much because I know quite a few trans people both directions. And I haven't ever had a conversation with them like this because it hasn't been one-on-one. You know, it's been like there's a group of people or their children are around or what have you. And so I'm feel, I feel like this is a really good learning lesson for me too to again, you know, further deepen my relationship with the other trans people that I know. But I got the chance to meet Gigi Gorgeous during the summer. Do you know who they're,

Speaker 8 35:28

Yes, that is actually mad. I used to watch them on YouTube

Quincy 35:31

yeah.

Speaker 6 35:32

Ages ago. That's like a

Speaker 8 35:33

blast. In the past, I used to love her.

Quincy 35:35

Yeah. Did you, did you, um, buy their book? It's

Joy 35:39

No,

Quincy 35:40

So they have a book out. I bought the book and I've only gotten a few pages into it, but it's quite a beautiful book, not just in what they wrote with this other person. And I, I don't even know how you pronounce her name, but I think it's like Malik or Mal is the other person. But the o the photography in there of their bodies is just so beautiful. And I feel like it's sort of a coffee table book, but also a trans um, uh, education type of book at the same time. So if you get a chance to pick it up, you should. I chatted with them about coming on the podcast, but their PR people haven't gotten back to me yet, but they said they would when I talk to them in person. So

Joy 36:19

Wow.

Quincy 36:20

they'll come back around. But if you could mess, if you could whisper one message to your ear when you were younger, the one about just stepping into who right now as 27 you're coming to be, what would you say to yourself then?

Speaker 8 36:36

I would say don't follow anyone. Find something you love and just do it. Just do it. Don't worry about if anyone likes you or not, because that is your super strength. But then if I also would go back, I would say don't change anything.'cause if I changed anything, then I wouldn't be who I am today. So there'd be no point. I used to always dream about going back and changing my life and going back to situations and having a great family and going through education. But if I did, I did that. I wouldn't be who I am today. I might be living a different life. I might have no empathy. I might be really rich. I might, who knows. So like, so I don't, I really can't change it. I really don't want to change it at all.

Quincy 37:16

Yeah, I hear you. Does your mom fully accept who you are now and, and the different beings that you're becoming on your way in, on your journey?

Speaker 8 37:26

Yeah, she really does. And it's such a universal thing. Like even like my granddad who's like 95 really does accept it. He's so cute. He is like, he is honestly the best person. I love him so much and I've missed out on so much of his life and it's like, it makes me really sad, but also makes me really happy that we have such a deep connection now. But honestly, she is so like understanding. She's so, like, she, I don't know if you've read any of Jo Dispenza or anything like that, but he talks a lot about like the body and the soul and how our, how our bodies don't really exist and how like, um, I don't know, everyone's just made of cells and all the, all the world's made of cells and she really does understand that. She really does understand that our bodies are not. The final destination. And she really doesn't understand that trans doesn't mean anything. And um, I dunno if you've seen the new Big Brother at the moment in the uk, but the, there's a new big brother and there's the trans guy on the big brother, right? And she's like, so here for it. She's so here for it. She loves it. And my mom, she's so, she's accepting. I, I really understand. She's accepting. I think from a kid. I've always dressed as a, like a guy. I've always like wanted to be dress, um, to wear the guy's clothes. I've never worn girls' clothes. Like when I wore a dress once at school, I like cried. So yeah,

Quincy 38:39

Oh.

Speaker 8 38:40

it's really sad actually thinking about it now. It was a sad moment. Like my mom made me wear it and I was like wearing it and I felt so uncomfortable. I don't know why. You just don't know why about these things. It's such a weird thing. And that's what makes me question is being trans nature or nurture. And that's something that I'm really questioning and thinking about. And I just, I don't know if it was my, like, like my primary sources or my influences that made me feel like I need to be more masculine. But ever since. Without anything. I never used to even watch TV as a kid, so I don't understand how I understood that I would wanna see your masculine. I just did and it didn't feel right. So, yeah, those are some really interesting things. I just, yeah, I forgot what we were talking

Speaker 6 39:17

about,

Speaker 8 39:18

but yeah,

Quincy 39:19

No, that, that was really a great, great answer. Do you have a couple more minutes or do you wanna wrap up?'cause it's, it's seven your time.

Joy 39:27

I'm actually good. I'm good for, um, go more. Yeah, I'm good

Quincy 39:29

Okay, perfect. Um, so your, in your experience, where does faith, spirituality, and mental health collide? Like, do you practice any sort of spirituality or anything?

Speaker 6 39:42

if you see behind me,

Speaker 8 39:43

but I've got the, um,

Quincy 39:45

I see the chakras. Yeah.

Speaker 8 39:47

checkboard, right? So this is like the seven chakras of the body, right? So I'm really into meditation and like open up your chakras and stuff. I don't know if you know about Kalani and stuff like that.

Quincy 39:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 39:57

so I recently, I've had a big journey with brutality. I think, um, I, my family are very religious and I think that made me really reject religion. I was like, I don't want this

Quincy 40:08

or what kind of religion?

Speaker 8 40:09

Christianity very hardcore Nigerian and Christianity going to the pen Pentecostal church, you know what I mean? Going every Sunday wearing clothes. I didn't wanna wear, basically feeling disgusting by myself, not feeling good, feeling like I was forced to pray, forced to do this kind of stuff. But I'm the kind of person that rejects all authority, and as soon as you tell me to do something, I will not do it. So I think that was the, that literally was it. So, um, but yeah, I think as I got older, I remember. I think six years ago, this is when I started my modeling journey. I moved to uni and I was living in a flat with my friend and stuff. And um, I started, I started like praying to God. Basically. I was just like, please, I really want this agent. Please give me this job. And I, everything that I prayed for happened and I was like, okay, maybe I should start believing in God started believing in God more things happened. Okay. Then I met these friends coming back from the gym. I went to the gym and then we met, we met kind of like in the park randomly. I wanted to go home, but for some reason I stayed in the park. Weird. And they were there and I was like, okay. And they're really spiritual people, really spiritual people. And they were like, oh, have, you've been thinking about you all this time? And I was like, it's really weird. I've only seen you once. Like why are you thinking about me? And they were like, come hang out with us. And we hang out. And this is like in my uni days, we took some like MDMA or whatever and we were hanging around the park, we're like dancing around the trees and all this kinda stuff with these like random like four year olds that I've met from the gym. And I was like, this is crazy. And they taught me a lot about spirituality. They taught me a lot about stuff that I didn't know. Like they taught me a lot about, I don't know if you knew, like, um, you vibrations and water. Like water and food receives vibrations and energy. They taught me all about that and this was six years ago. So from that I was just like, okay. Then I meditated for like the first time in ages and then I just remember having like an actual like out body experience and I was like, okay, this is amazing. Um, I dunno, six years have passed. Many bad things have happened. Many, many bad things have happened. I, my mental health has gone, like, went like from kind of good to like really, really bad, really, really bad. Moved back to my mom's house, really bad relationship with their mom. So you can imagine what that was like. Um, so all this kinda stuff was happening and then maybe last year was I had another spiritual kind of like review me and my, one of my best friends had like a kind of fallout and I was like, okay. I don't trust anyone. I don't trust myself. I don't trust anyone. Don't trust my family. I completely hate myself. I dunno what to do. Like I want to kill myself, basically. I dunno what to do. I threw myself into the mercy of like,

Quincy 42:32

goodness.

Speaker 8 42:33

Hmm. Sorry.

Quincy 42:34

Oh my goodness. So sorry.

Speaker 8 42:36

No, it is fine. Like I, this is why I'm so happy to talk about it, because I'm just like, it's, I don't know. It's something that's I'm just really happy about. I'm just so grateful I went through it. But like, um, yeah, so I basically went to the mental health service and was just like, I don't know, I've got bipolar, I've got mental health, I've got A-D-H-D-I didn't want to do. And like, I just generally thought I had bipolar for so long because they were just like, you've got bipolar, you've, you're, you're really bad. You're like mentally ill, you're dah, dah, duh. And I was just like ticking along like duh, dah, dah, dah. And then maybe, I don't know, like six months, three, four months ago, um, or four months ago maybe, like I would say before December, so October. I kind of like went on like a bit of a weight loss journey and I started losing weight and I lost like 25 kg. So I ended up getting the body that I wanted.'cause I basically, I was still binge eating and still overrating like maybe like a year ago. And I was still like really harming my body. So I went on a weight loss journey and I was like, okay, it doesn't matter if anyone likes me, it doesn't matter if, um, all my friends hate me. I am still going to do my steps. I'm still gonna do my 10,000 steps a day. I'm gonna get outside of the house. I'm gonna do something to make myself feel good. And then I started doing that every single day. Every single day. And then I started reading more of my books that I'd like read back in the past. Like, do you know, like, you know, Jay Shetty, all this kind of stuff that have my audible right?

Quincy 43:57

I love Jay Shetty. Yeah, he's

Speaker 8 43:58

Right. It's so much about him and there's like, I don't know if you ever wanna talk about it, but there's so much controversy as well. I read like a lot of like random, like internet, um, debates. But yeah, so I started listening to him like three years ago, and then I was like, okay, I need to get back on my spiritual arts journey. I just need to just feel something. And I wrote, I wrote down, I wrote down all the books that I have unfinished. So I started reading was this book here actually started reading this book again. So this is Becoming Supernatural. And I was just like, okay, I'm gonna start reading this because I've, I haven't read it in a long time. Started reading that and then I was just like, okay. I feel like this is the time now to change myself virtually, really change myself virtually. So I really just started getting into it more, started getting into the meditating every single day, meditating every day, um, I don't know, doing courses, like really thinking about my mental health, really like allowing it. And I said to myself, any single opportunity that comes along, you just have to take it. Say yes. You have no fear anymore. You have no fear. So I remember someone messaged me on Instagram after not being on Instagram for seven whole months. I deleted social, social media for seven months because I had that friendship. Breakup was so bad that I hated myself so much. I deleted social media for so long. Someone messaged me saying, do you want to be in my film? And I said, this is weird. I wouldn't usually say yes to this. Usually I would not be happy with their body, not be happy with myself, not be happy with how I acted. And I was just like, Hmm, I've just done a weight loss journey. I feel happy, I feel good. Let me just do this film. That film changed my life. That film really allowed me to be like, oh God, I can. I love this. I love being on set. I haven't, I've missed being on set. I've missed being around people that are creative and loving and just like so amazing. And just like the guy that cast me as himself in the film to play a trans actor. And I was just like, wow, this is like ideal. And like, I never thought I would get it. And it was just like something that changed my life and I was just like, okay, I can do life again. I can literally do life. And without that I wouldn't be here where I am. And like so many weird signs and like signals that come through the universe, not the universe, just me, if anything all the time. And I'm just like, okay. And my identity with God is not God as in a Christian sense, as God is in the sky. But God's within everybody, God's within me, God's within you, God's within the plants, god's within the dogs that we see. And that's what I kind of let go by. I just really go by the theory that like we are all one person, but we just don't understand each other. Um, it's either, it's easier said than done, um, but I can't remember what you said the question was in the first place.

Quincy 46:24

No, you totally answered it.'cause it was about how you experience spirituality. Spirituality or faith or something like that. And if you practiced it and you absolutely answered it, like right on, I feel so happy for you because I love that you connected with something outside of yourself, but that it allowed you to continue to see the beauty of yourself. Beauty not in a, in a masculine or feminine way, but beauty in of being a human right and knowing that you can give people a voice by being yourself. That you give people representation by saying yes to things. And those things are so important. I always tell my dog. And myself just say yes, because you never know. And I'm not saying if someone says, you know, jump out of the plane with me today. That's a yes. I'm talking about like things that make you uncomfortable, things that

Joy 47:17

Mm-hmm.

Quincy 47:18

stretch, things that make you feel like maybe it's something super boring. You know? And I had this experience when I was 15 years old. It was on my birthday. My parents had a friend's aunt, so it was, at the time this lady was probably close to 80 or something like that. And like, you know, our friend Jill's in town, she wants to go see her aunt. The only night we can see her is on your birthday. And I was like, okay. And I think I was turning like 15 or something like that. So to spend the night with this woman, I had no idea who it was and everything. I just had this really bad attitude. But we drove to her house and she, they had heard, I don't know who told her, it was my birthday. She had gotten me a cake and she wrote me this beautiful card. She didn't even know me. But from that day forward, I always thought to myself. Situations are only bad if you make them bad. If you, if you don't have an open mind, then yes, it's gonna be bad. And so from that day on, I literally think about how much good comes out of things. And occasion, not everything works out, but there's always some sort of lesson. So that's what I do. I'm like, oh my God, that was such a boring night, but here's what I learned about this person. Or Here's what I learned about even like the traffic patterns going that way at that time of the night that I wouldn't necessarily be driving. So I literally take every time I say yes and have a learning experience from it. So I'm so happy about this film for you too, because you said it brought you back into the space that you're working towards. Can we see that film anywhere? Is it um,

Speaker 8 48:49

It's not out yet, but yeah, it's not out yet. It's also my first acting gig, so I'm just like so apprehensive of it.

Quincy 48:55

Don't be apprehensive because if you were yourself, then it's exactly what they wanted, right? I mean, think about it that way. Just keep thinking. I was myself. The director wanted you to be him, and if he didn't like you, he would've recasted. So you did the absolute right thing. I know it. I can just feel it from your energy and from talking, especially'cause I can see your face and no one else can see your face in this interview. Like I'm sure you crushed it. Absolutely crushed it.

Joy 49:20

Oh, thank you. Hopefully, I don't know, it was just such a weird, serendipitous moment and they were just like, you're exactly what we want, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was just like, what it, I don't know. It was wild. I just knew it was meant to be. As soon as I saw the text, I said, I have to say yes. There's nothing like I needed. Basically the only reason I said yes is because I needed the money. They were like, I'm gonna pay you money. And I said, I need that money. I'm gonna do it now. The only reason I went to the audition was because I was like, I was broke at that time. I needed it. So it is just so wild. It's so wild. Like you said, like anything you do is either a lesson or it's like a good thing. So you just never know. Like you never know what's gonna happen. And that's it. The beauty of the unknown and the beauty of the, just like, just feeling uncomfortable and getting out your skin is just so important. And that's why I love exercise so much. And I love, I dunno doing whatever.'cause you just never know what's gonna happen and, yeah.

Quincy 50:08

You, you don't know what's gonna happen, and that's the surprise, right? Every day, like you wake up, you know, bless me for this day. I woke up and I get to drive my daughter to school every single morning and listen to the same songs over and over, even though I want to like stab my eye out because that, it's like, dude, how can you listen to the same songs over and over? But I just have to remember, okay, this is, you know, it's short lived. She's gonna wanna ride to school with friends, like whatever it is. I try to reframe every little thing that happens as much as I possibly can until things get bad. And then I'm just like, I just need to shut that person or that instant, or whatever it is out of my life for a while and see if distance changes it. You know,

Joy 50:52

Okay.

Quincy 50:52

but, um, I'm really excited to see this film. I'm actually really, really excited. So what does intimacy with yourself look like after holding so much space for others? When you say in your coaching space, or even like hanging out with friends, but not being able to give them what they need because one, they're not paying you. So that's the unsolicited advice that people don't want. Right. How do you give yourself that intimate space?

Speaker 8 51:17

How do I give myself advice more? Like, how do I, okay.

Quincy 51:21

Yeah.

Speaker 8 51:22

Um, I meditate every single day. So every day I meditate, but I will journal before. I always just like to think about what is going on, like, why do I feel the way I do? I, I question a lot of my behavior a lot. If I act a certain way, I question it. Um, if someone treats me badly, I question it. I don't know. I think holding a space for yourself is quite hard, isn't it? I mean, being hard on yourself as well.'cause you feel an emotional and you're just like, Ugh, I'm, I don't wanna be angry, I don't wanna be upset at this person. You feel like a bad person when you're upset and you're angry. Currently, me and my housemate in a bit of, a bit of a, not a bad, but a bit of a argument about the washing machine. It's not necessary, is it? Like everybody has their opinion. It's not about the argument, it's just the fact that we just, we just differ in opinions, isn't it? So I don't really know how to hold faith for myself sometimes, but I think holding space for me is allowing myself to be open with other people. I never was open with anyone before. So being able to verbalize how I'm feeling and being able to like write that down is so important because I just told myself I was crazy and that's it. I told myself I was crazy over and over again until I became crazy. Right? So it's like, that's what you do. So if I tell myself I am open and I'm free and I'm mentally like able, you become mentally able. But it's, it's not, it's not as easy to do that as you can say it. But I don't know. I just think being open with yourself, um, is a lot. And I think when you are jealous, especially when you're like, you see someone down the street and you think, oh, I want to be like them. Be honest. Are you jealous of them? Yeah, I am. Okay. Why do you feel jealous? What is this emotion? What is this emotion gonna lead to? Is it okay to feel jealous? Yes, it's okay. Is it okay to feel hate? Yes. It's okay. So where do you go from there? Like all these transphobes, their emotions are not wrong. The way they feel about trans people invading their space. It's not wrong. It's not wrong. It's like, okay, emotion. It's just how would you relate that emotion to an action that's going to do something or going to help someone. It's not. So that's what I always think about. But I don't know. I just think being around other people helps me learn a lot because if I'm learning their lessons or what they're going through, I'm just like, okay, that's how you deal with this. That's how you deal with that. At the end of the day, I get things wrong all the time. Like all the time. Like me and my friend had a breakup last week. I got I, maybe I got it wrong, maybe it was my fault. Who knows? Like things are always gonna happen that I, I'm not in control of. I'm not happy with certain situations, how I dealt with them. I'm not happy with certain people that I've talked to, but what can I do really? But from just move on, like if it's meant to be, it's meant to be and you just gotta give your best really.

Quincy 53:55

Yeah, you're right. You're exactly right. Just give people that grace. And hope that via your platforms, my platforms, they see humanity behind the labels. Right. Which is exactly why I started this podcast because I wanted people to see people through one a Gen X lens that I'm reaching out to people that you know, I would never meet otherwise. Because of course for you and I, we live, you know, an ocean apart plus the whole continent of America because I'm on the very edge of the California coast. So it's become this really. Incredible way for me to connect people, but to, to let my audience hear different stories in from my, not my perspective, but from my urging of people to want to come onto the podcast and just talk to me. We're not grilling you, we're not, you know, it's nothing about that. It's not, you're right, I'm wrong. There's nothing, there's not like, you know, gen X lesbians are better than Gen Z lesbians, or, or whatever you wanna say. It's just that opportunity for people to share their story so that other people can have less judgment, less fear around us, because people are fearful. I have, you know, some of my friends, straight husbands are absolutely fearful of my relationship with their wives, and I'm like, look, I have never. Taken anyone's wife in a lesbian relationship or a straight relationship, I'm not gonna do it to your wife. Like you have to trust me. Yes, I know that you adore her and you think she's the hottest person on the planet, and she may be,

Joy 55:28

Yes. Yeah.

Quincy 55:29

that's not my job to go around and destroy marriages just because I'm a lesbian and you know, maybe your wife told you some great things and very cool, but I'm not a relationship destroyer. Right. Do you feel like that happens sometimes for you with

Speaker 8 55:44

Oh yeah, a hundred percent. It happens all the time. Like I think it happens way less now because I associate myself with very different people. I associate myself with people that are able to hold deep conversations. But I think before when I was avoidant, I was attracting avoidant people. So that's what happens, right? So you attract people that you project, right? So I was attracting people that were v vulnerable and scared around me. They were scared that I was gonna take their girlfriends. A lot of people that I knew in polyamorous relationships were scared that I was gonna try and get involved. I don't wanna be polyamorous. I don't want that drama. I mean, it's okay for some people, but I don't wanna be like, I don't, I don't care. I don't want your relationship. At the end of the day, if I wanted a relationship, I would be in it. I think a lot of people see me and they see the fact that I like I'm, it is not like I like to be single. I am single or whatever, and they think that I want to. Take that away from them. I want to like take their girlfriends. And I've fallen out of friends over this. I remember last year my friend had a dream that I said that I fancied their girlfriend. And that was the reason they chose for us to not be friends anymore. And I said, that is mad, honestly. That really, so deep down they've been having all these insecurities, all their friendship, all that friendship, and then they use that as a reason. So it's like sometimes you don't know what people think about you until the end of the friendship and they let it all out. And I'm like, bro, like I don't even, you didn't even say any of this. You didn't say any of this. And it's just like, this is all based on what you or what I present as and what I look like. And I talk about all the things I do. I talk about all the creative things I do and all the people I meet. And people just can't comprehend that. And I think it's just like, it's hard. It's hard for people to do that, but I understand it.'cause I used to be the same. I used to see people that are like doing the things that I wanted to do and I would use that jealousy as anger to myself and I'd be like, oh no, I can't be around them. Or No, that's a toxic person. Or anything they used to do. I would, I would break them down for it completely. I'd be like, you're not this person. You can't do that. And it's only because of insecurity. Like jealousy is insecurity. And I think it's just like, like you, you're like you're established like. People feel like they can't be, men especially feel like they, you can't be around their girlfriends because they feel, oh God, this woman's herself. She wants to like, she wants to just hang out by herself. She's independent. She doesn't need anyone. So therefore my girlfriend's gonna be attracted to her magnetically. And that his thought process is going to dismantle their relationship.'cause it's gonna break them apart. It's going to separate'em apart no matter what you do. So it's like, and that's the thing I've, I've had to move, remove myself from so many friendships.'cause I felt the, like the negativity and I felt the horribleness because they, everything I said or everything I did, they would just like give me like an angry look. And it's just like, I've just told them I've done a movie and they're just like, and it's just like, why?

Quincy 58:26

That's funny. The look that you made was really funny. I love that. Yeah. I, I hope that someday straight men and straight women in relationships, you know, if your husband might be bi or what have, or have you, that you kind of leave all of us out of it.'cause you're exactly right that it's their relationship that has the weaknesses and not our strength. That is the problem.

Speaker 8 58:50

Yeah. Yeah. I think men are just intimidated by strength. Like as you can see, by history. That's why they've done all these things. Like why they invented marriage, for example, is to control women, right? So men are just historically intimidated by strength, and I think that's why a lot of short men have problems with me. They just do. It's just true.

Quincy 59:07

tall are you, by the way?

Speaker 8 59:07

I'm six one,

Quincy 59:09

Yeah,

Speaker 8 59:09

so I'm six one. I'm masculine. People already think I'm a man, right? So short men have historically had many problems with me. I've had many fights with short men, and it's just like, I don't know. I don't know. It's their insecurities, isn't it? But all you can do is be yourself really.

Quincy 59:27

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I want everyone to know where to find you before we close. What is your Instagram that people can find you at?

Speaker 8 59:35

So my Instagram is, my name ain't Joyce. My name isn't Joyce, but I called it that after. My name isn't Earl. I haven't, have you seen that before?

Quincy 59:43

Yeah.

Speaker 8 59:44

Uh, the most classic show in the world. Like I love that show. Um, but like, yeah, I called myself. My name ain't Joyce. Um, and it's on Instagram pretty much everywhere really. But yeah, that's me

Quincy 59:55

And then on LinkedIn in case somebody wants to partner up with you for something.

Speaker 8 59:59

exciting. Um, I think, I think it's just my name. I think it's Joy. Matthews is your name. Is everyone's name the same name on LinkedIn?

Quincy 1:00:08

It seems like most people, some people use the last initial, but most everyone else,'cause it's such a professional thing, use their first and their last name, but

Joy 1:00:15

It is, isn't it? Yeah.

Quincy 1:00:16

love that. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna wrap up now. Is there anything else you wanted to say before we wrap up?

Speaker 6 1:00:22

No, honestly, I think we've had a, we've had like a deep chat.

Quincy 1:00:26

Me too. Me too. Joy Matthews reminds us that mental health work is not just about systems and structures, it's about lived truth. They showed us how black and queer voices can shift the language of healing. How compassion from everyday people can move mountains and how caring for others must begin with caring for ourselves in their story. We find both resistance and tenderness a reminder that wholeness is possible even in the mess of it all. That's the glow. Joy leaves with us tonight. Thank you everyone for coming and listening.