Lights, Courage, Action: Lee Rose's Directorial Odyssey

Lights, Courage, Action: Lee Rose's Directorial Odyssey

Lee Rose: In-the-Face Storytelling, The Truth About Jane, and Refusing to Disappear

Host Quincy interviews writer-director-producer Lee Rose about her career and approach to storytelling, highlighting The Truth About Jane as a project that enabled parent-child conversations and drew intense reactions, including death threats, a White House screening, and a fight to dedicate the film to Matthew Shepard. Rose traces her path from theater and production work to writing and producing TV movies, learning ruthless editing from Stockard Channing, and making her directorial debut with The Color of Courage, a civil-rights story she pushed to greenlight with Linda Hamilton’s support. She discusses being raised by a Black housekeeper, sexism in directing versus being gay, the shrinking pipeline for new diverse directors post-COVID/strikes, and advice to persist through shorts, grants, festivals, and DGA mentoring. Rose also reflects on coming out later in life, separating work from news, and currently writing a novel about generations of women and slavery.

00:00 A Rebel Builds Her Own Table

01:08 Welcome to Cocoon After Dark

01:25 Rapid Fire and The Truth About Jane

02:52 From Theater to TV Sets

04:06 Learning to Let Words Go

07:19 Becoming a Ruthless Editor

09:14 Directorial Debut The Color of Courage

13:56 Raised by Johnny and Identity

15:18 Women Gay and Power on Set

17:01 Who Gets Hired Now

19:29 Advice for New Directors

21:24 When Representation Catches Up

24:46 Writing for Everyone Strong Leads

26:39 Origins Late Bloomer Lessons

29:23 Chores and Tough Love

30:39 Truth About Jane Fallout

33:07 Culture Backlash Today

34:18 Staying Focused Creatively

35:28 Mentoring Women Filmmakers

36:38 Two Ideas at Once

37:59 Coming Out at 38

41:21 Parents and Upbringing

47:37 Exes and Adulthood

49:52 Martinis and Quitting Smoking

51:09 Cruise and Farewell

Transcript

Quincy 0:02

There's a certain kind of woman who doesn't ask for a seat at the table. She builds a different table. She writes the characters. Nobody would green light. She directs the story stories. Nobody had the guts to tell. She puts her name on work that makes network executives nervous, and she does it while being completely unapologetically and visibly herself. Long before representation was a buzzword and long before Hollywood decided diversity was good for business, long before your favorite streaming show had a queer storyline and called it groundbreaking, this woman was already there. Already done it. Already won a GLAD Award, a Gabriel Award, a human test nomination, and the kind of quiet respect that only comes from decades of refusing to disappear. She wrote the Truth about Jane when Lifetime didn't know what to do with it, and it became their highest rated movie in five years. She directed Star Trek Discovery. True. Grace and Frankie Firefly Lane genres that have nothing in common except one thing. She made them human. She's the writer, a director, a producer, a lesbian, a pioneer who never called herself one because she was too busy working. Welcome to Cocoon After Dark. As you guys know, I'm Quincy, and tonight we go deep. My guest is Lee Rose, and if you didn't know that name. You will know by the end of this conversation. Lee, welcome to my cocoon. Well, thank you. I'm so excited to have you. I like to start with a couple of rapid fire questions. Is that cool? Okey doke. Okay. First one in one word. The industry tough, the project that still lives in your body and the one you can't fully let go. Um, the one that lives in my body most, I think is, uh, the truth about Jane, only because of how many people, um, could have the conversation with the parent after that movie that couldn't before. That, uh, the one that, uh, the, and the next one is in the future, so I don't know what that. That project will be. I love that. I love that. The moment you knew you were exactly where you were supposed to be. Uh, when I first got on a set, I knew that that's where I belonged. Oh, that's so beautiful. I wanna talk about that after this. Okay. In your face, in 10 words or less. 10 words or less? Well, that was my moniker because I would never back down. I just felt what that truth was important and I was gonna make enemies and I didn't care. Awesome. I love that. All right, let's get to it. Is that 10 words? I don't know. You're gonna count them. No, I'm not. Okay. I just didn't want like a 20 minute like rendition of it. Yeah, that'd be boring. You started in theater, the ensemble Studio theater, the LA Actor Theater. Before anyone was calling you a writer director, what was that version of Lee Rose that existed in those rooms before the industry had a category before you. Um, it was exploratory for me. It was part of my learning curve of learning how to talk to actors and direct actors. Um, and I was working in the industry as a PA and all that stuff, and sort of slowly going up the hill. Um, and then directing theater was fun because it, it allowed me to have a real intimacy with actors. The unfortunate part about theater is you don't make money and in fact, you end up bringing your own furniture to the theater as one of the sets. And after about five years, I get really sick of that. So that was enough. Oh my gosh. I can imagine. Because one of my kids has done school theater and. Oh my gosh. The stuff you're asked to bring. Yes. Oh, it's ridiculous. Yes. Yeah, it is so crazy. And do you have this clothes and these kind of shoes and all of these things and you're like, who's putting this on you or us? You know? No. Terrible. It's so funny. Alright, you said you waited until you were really ready to direct. You didn't want to direct your own script first because you didn't trust yourself to let it go. That kind of self-awareness is rare and honestly, a little bit ruthless. What was the discipline that you got from that? I think I, I learned early on when I was writing and producing my movies and learned to, I would fight the networks, um, because they didn't really know what was right or what should be in the movie. And it wasn't about my ego, it was about just. Authentically protecting the story. And then I learned from actors like Stalker Channing, how to not be in love with your words and how to let them go. Um, and I felt like if I were under the pressure and the microscope of directing my first movie. With a script of mine, I would have my backup and I wouldn't take notes from anybody. Mm-hmm. And I didn't really want to do that. And I also wanted to know more. I think I produced like eight movies before I felt I was ready and successful ones. So, um, I found a script that was, uh, a civil rights story that I had never heard in school. That was a true story. And, uh, that's, I made that my directorial debut. Right. Oh, that's so beautiful too. How did s Stockard convey to you that, oh God. It was in the worst way ever. So we're shooting in New York, Uhhuh. Oh my God. She's, she's kind of like, I did five movies with her and she's like a, she's a genius and she's like an animal in the same way. So we're shooting in New York. Uh, she's running around a corner. Um, the kid, she's looking after her nephew gets hit by a car. She gets down on her knees. Mind you, she has bad knees. She gets down on her knees and he's unconscious. And I wrote this big monologue, which I thought was quite brilliant. Actually. I'm on the side of the street. She starts the monologue and she goes, I don't, I don't need to say all this shit. I. And I'm saying she sees my face go white like she told me later, and she gets off her knees and comes over to me and she goes, I didn't mean to say what you wrote was shit. I meant to say I could do it with less words. And I said, then that's what you should have said. Oh wow. Yeah. And I go, you talk to John g Gu this way? And she goes, yeah. I go, well then he's crazy'cause you're not gonna get one more note done ever. We're done. And she apologized and we carried on and we did two MO movies after that I think. But that's where words trip up the scene. And then, and then I learned from that moment that she was right. Not the way she said it, but that she was absolutely right and uh, and so to be sparse and really objective. Uh, is what I strive for after that. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So from that moment on, like what changed? Like when you put pen to paper or hand to type writer or computer, how did it change? I became a ruthless editor. Mm-hmm. Which I am to this day. Really like, yeah. Do you print it out and I print it out and I slash it and I Yeah. Yeah. I just go crazy. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I'm not in love with, I, I'm in love with very few things that I'll fight to keep, but most things not. Yeah, I feel the same way. I can't imagine not still writing. Something with my hand and, and making it make sense because it doesn't feel like my person when I just put it onto a screen that doesn't feel like me. Yeah. It only feels like me once I print everything out and start, like you said, ripping up. Ripping it up. Yeah. Well, people make fun of me that I have paper copies of everything I do. Oh my God. Like I print everything out, like even pitches and they're like, you know, you could keep, just read it on the computer. I go, Nope, nope. It doesn't. It's the way I work. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I don't, if I read it on a computer, it's not the same as reading a printed page. It just isn't. So I don't Old school percent. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing with a Kindle, right? You're reading these, at least I read Kindles and I have actual books. Yeah. I remember the books that I read when I turn the page more, because I see the. Every time I open it when I'm reading on a Kindle, the black and white.'cause I only have the black and white version. Black and white version. And it, you know, I swipe up and there's the page that I left off on. It never really truly feels like I read it, even though I know I did. Yeah. It doesn't feel real because my hand wasn't holding it. Yeah. Do you read Agreed? Uh, I do, except when I'm writing then I can't do too many words. Mm. Yeah. Like I don't watch a lot of television when I'm directing'cause too many visuals. It's where, you know, I'll watch cooking shows. Oh yeah. Just to like rinse my head out. Right. Um, so yeah, so that's sort of how I got to, um, the Color of Courage, which is a, a whole other interesting story. Do you wanna talk about it? Um, it was a movie. It was a, it was a civil rights case, uh, Sipes versus McGee, which was before Brown versus Brown. And it was Thurgood Marshall's first case before the Supreme Court. And, and it was like, how did I not know about this?'cause I'm like, I was raised by a black woman. I'm like, I'm like, I wish I could be black. I'm not. Like, it's a huge thing to me. And I didn't know about it, nor did anyone I knew Yeah. Know about it. But the woman who wrote the script that it's sort of Languished and Hollywood, uh uh, Kathleen McGee Anderson was their granddaughter. Oh, okay. So. I read the script and I had just had a huge hit with Linda Hamilton called A Mother's Prayer about a woman Dying of aids, A true story, and I read the script and I thought, I want to do it, and USA network said to me, what do you wanna do next? I said, I wanna make my directorial debut with this movie and the head of USA at the time. Rod Perth, Rhett read the script and he goes, W we, we'll option it for you, but we're not gonna make it. It's a period piece, civil rights movie. We're not. It's really, we we're not making it. And I go, what if I get Linda Hamilton to star in it? And they, and he said, well, then we'd make it. So I called Linda and I said, I'm gonna send you a script that I want to be my directorial debut. And she said, you don't need to send it. I'll do it. When and where do you want me? Aw, that's, that's like so sweet. Linda and I have done three movies together. She's the greatest person alive. Oh wow. Um, and I called Rod and he, he was about to get fired'cause Barry Diller had bought USA back in the day and he called me and he said, my last act as president is to green light your movie. True story. And Hollywood doesn't exist like that these days, meaning personal relationships, nobody gives a shit about anybody. So I, I benefited deeply from it. But, so then I cast Linda Hamilton, Lin Woodfield, Bruce Greenwood, Roger Gwyn Smith, they Lin Woodfield, uh, and Linda Hamilton wanted a rewrite. Kathleen didn't wanna do their notes. And I said, well, I'm telling you I will do their notes'cause we have a green light. I got it up and running. So then we had, and Kathleen and I had been friends and we stopped talking because of that. Oh wow. And so we're in Vancouver shooting and there's just a scene that's just not working. And, and Lynn and Linda were in a weird way playing their parts of. The black woman and the white woman, and there was some like tussle in the bar, like with argument. And I was sitting there and Linda got up and left. I said, Lynn, we have to go after her. Like this is, I don't know what like side of the street you guys are playing, but we're on the same team. Mm-hmm. So, and, and it may be subconscious and I think it was right. Mm-hmm. The white girl versus the black girl. And so Lynn and I ran to the elevators and got in the elevator with Linda, and we all had a huge like cry and a hug. Aww. And, and so Lynn and Linda both were saying, we don't, we need, we're shooting a scene tomorrow. That's a pivotal scene that doesn't say anything about either of these people. So I said, well, okay, I, I have a five o'clock pickup, a six o'clock call. I'm gonna go back to my room and rewrite it and try and make it right. Mm-hmm. So I did, and I said, I'll shove it under your doors. And I did. And I go to set. Lynn Whitfield walks up to me and she said, you did pretty good for a white girl. Oh my God. And it was, it's a beautiful scene. It just like, and so, um, so cut to the movie was done. It got accepted to the Chicago Film Festival. And Kathleen McGee's, Kathleen Mc Anderson's relatives live in Chicago and they went to, um, one of the screenings and Kathleen saw it and she said, you did my family proud. Aw, that's so sweet. So we have good stories back in the day. Yes. They're not so often now. Yes. But so Kathleen and I are still friends and Oh, that's great. You know that that was my directorial debut. Can we talk about you being raised by a black woman? Yeah, she was that, her name is Johnny and she, uh, she was our housekeeper.'cause my mom and dad were not parental. Like they don't, was not, were any of our parents really that parental? I don't know. But boy, they weren't, they weren't not, I think it was like a she accident. Um, and Johnny taught me about Aretha Franklin and soap operas. And so I think like the soap storytelling was kind of like, oh, okay. Yeah, so, but I've always identified, like I would make my mom slow down if I saw a black woman run for the bus. Like I had a thing like from birth, like when I was a little kid, I go, mom, you have to pull over. Oh my gosh. Like, it was kind of weird. So in some past life, I've. I must have been a black person. You may have been. I think so. Hopefully a singer. Yeah. Hopefully a singer. Right? The, the Iest places ever. I know the Silkies places. So we're gonna talk about your in the face truth, and thank you so much for sharing about your directorial debut because it was a beautiful full. Explanation than anything that I was able to read about or whatever. Having it come like straight out of your voice into this microphone was absolutely beautiful. Thank you. You and I have to apologize. I've not seen it and I will definitely be watching it this week, I promise you. Um, in the written by article you said being a woman hurts you in every way, shape and form. Being gay doesn't affect my. Career one way or another. That's a wildly specific distinction. 20 plus years later, do you still believe that or is that calculus shifted? Um, I think it, and I think it holds true still. I, um, being a woman is a problem being a woman. Back in the day when there were. Three of us directing at the time, Mimi leader, Leslie Gladder, and myself, basically. Mm-hmm. Uh, was a real issue. It was like people were doing us a favor, but being a gay woman for me, because I was a tough person, I didn't take no for an answer. I was more like one of the guys on set. So I, it was more acceptable to scuffle with everyone as a gay woman, um, than as a woman. Hmm. Why did you feel like the men were treating you differently once they realized you were gay and you just toughened up versus when they thought you weren't gay and sort of were just being No, it was, it was my personality. It was like they, the, they were not surprised when they found out I was gay, but they were, were also like, oh shit, she's gonna be formidable. Mm. Like if they would do something, I'd go, go fuck yourselves when they go, oh. Okay. And then it was like we were a gang. Mm-hmm. Like we were on the same team. Mm-hmm. And a lot of women who direct get very weak and soft spoken and are easily manipulated and pushed around and, you know, um, I was not one of them. Mm-hmm. Who right now do you think is who are rather great up and coming women directors besides yourself? Of course. Well, I'm, no, I'm on the tail end of, of the slope. I'm not up and coming anymore, up and coming. I mean, there are a lot of filmmakers that are really good and it's really hard. It's hard to get new people into television. Um, like I can't list names because we're not letting them come in much. Mm-hmm. Like between the. Um, you know, COVID and the strikes, it kind of really closed a lot of doors. Mm. So like, episodic and streamers are hiring mainly men again,'cause that, you know, the, the, the era of women and, um, ethnic. Hires is over Welcome to Trump land. Right. Um, and, and, and pros, like long time directors like me and other people like me, me and Leslie and all those guys are all still working, but the new ones are finding it very hard to get in. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's kind of heartbreaking. Wow. So. Let's talk about black strong directors. How about Shonda? Like what? What made that so, or has made it and continues to make it so incredibly different for her line of work versus newer people? You mean Shonda Rhimes? Yeah. Well, because she created a hit show that was brilliant. She's a brilliant writer, so when you create Grey's Anatomy and Scandal and all that stuff. Then it's your playground and then she can hire Debbie Allen and all those guys. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, certain shows hire only black directors and rightfully so. Mm-hmm. Like the power shows mm-hmm. Are like for stars. And I think that, um. Mara, uh, who did forever is trying to hire mainly black directors, which is Right. And Ava, on her shows, tries to hire people, sometimes just women who can't get a job, like, who do an independent feature that nobody sees. Mm-hmm. So she did that. So I think it has to be really specific and I, and I think it has to come from the head up. Mm-hmm. Okay. That's interesting. So if somebody is wanting out there that's wants to direct or is writing and what have you, what sort of like advice should you give them right now? Well, like you said, it's, we're in the middle of Trumpland and then we're not hiring ethnics and we're not hiring, you know, people that present as, as women. I listen, I, here's what I say to everyone and I continue to mentor at the DGA and my mentee this year is. Big black man who is a first ad. And you know, we have this conversation a lot when we meet. It's, the arts will always win, even if it's reduced, even if conglomerates, you know, cannibalize each other. You can always do a short film. You can always find people willing to help you with it. You can always write something. Um, and no matter what. Content will always win. The arts will always win. They have historically, through World Wars, through the Nazis, they will continue to through Trump and any evil that comes with that. And after, um, I just think you have to be strategic and smart and. You apply for every grant you can apply for you Apply to the Director's Guild mentoring program. You apply to, you shoot short films, you apply to every God festival that you can get into. Like you just, you can't say no, like back in the day if I had even had a doubt. I never let it come in because I wouldn't have succeeded. You know, you just, you just know you will, you just don't know the timing of what it will be because you can't, it's outta your hands, but you can do the work and you can write things and direct things and, you know, meet people and try and learn. So I always think there's a way I do. That's great. That's great. You guys listened to our plays. So you were out in Hollywood at a time when being out was genuinely a career risky, not just socially awkward, but professionally dangerous, and you didn't hide it, you made it work. What did it feel like to watch the industry slowly catch up to the stories you were already telling, um, the truth about Jane a girl thing, and then act like representation was a new idea. Well, yeah, you would have to let that one go because you would go to like all these people, like, you know, going, oh my God, the first gay character on television. No, not really. You weren't. You weren't. But that's okay. Yeah, you just let it go. People try to take credit for groundbreaking when. If you did a little research, you would realize who, who broke the ground. Mm-hmm. I don't, I just move on. I go on to the next. I don't think about the past. I don't think about, I just go, what am I doing now? What am I doing next? Mm-hmm. That's smart. Yeah, that's really smart. There's a verge of, of your career where you soften the edges, where the straight lead stay in the lane and the industry built you. You clearly rejected that. Yeah. I'd probably be really famous, much more famous and successful if I weren't a rebel. I think about that a lot, but I never would've done the work I did ever. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have the body of work had I not pushed back and been a fighter and been the go along, get along person. I'd be making millions right now, but I don't think I'd be very happy. Mm. True. Right. The cost of your soul versus Yeah, exactly. Yeah. To be phony. I don't even know what that is. Yeah. Like that's, that's one of the things I definitely admire from you from the very first time we met. Like you ve like you just say it, put it out there. I do. You know, I do. And a lot of people do not enjoy that. I would say 50% of the people I work with love it and 50% hate, hate everything about it. Really? Oh yeah. What makes you think that they hate it? Oh, I know. You do you feel the pushback? You feel the, yeah. No, I know. Wow. Yeah. But do, I mean everyone's, at least to me, everyone's deepest desire is to be loved for who you are. 100% Who you are, right? Yeah. Like I don't have to hold my words. I don't have to hold my actions, my feelings, like whatever. If I have a comment or a feeling or a tantrum about this, I wanna have it and then have them go, oh, you feel better. I do thank you for letting me vent, or I need a hug or something like that. Yeah. But you're talking about the 10 percenters, right? You're 90% don't wanna hear what you're going through, and they're like, they're gonna judge you, especially on a set. They're gonna go, well, what? Why did you get that job? Who the fuck are you? So I will, I would say, of course, we all wanna be loved. The people who wanna be loved at any cost will kowtow to the power that's a problem. Yeah. So you try and find the 10% of the people in the world that love your strength, your ballsiness, your inappropriate comments, your appropriate comments and everything about you. Mm-hmm. But it's rare. Yeah, it's 10%. It definitely feels rare. Yeah. So you've said the television audience is dominated by women, so you found your refuge in cable and tv, but streaming has theoretically democratized all of it. Do you think the underlying bias actually changed or did we just get better at hiding it? What do you mean? Like do you feel like, let's see, how could I reword that pause for a second. Um. The people that are watching shows are more women the things that you're writing, or is it actually more men that are watching it? I, I think the majority of people watching streaming and network television are women. I would say it's probably 65, 35, like they still are the ones that watch. Yellowstone in addition to men watching it or paradise or whatever. But the advertisers will tell you that the majority of their subscribers and uh, clients are women. Like they always happen. So I think, I dunno, half the shows on TV are women or ya, or, right. And then 20% are male dominated action things I think. So do you find yourself now writing with both audiences, or does it not even occur to you? Do you just write? Um, I don't really think about it. I'm not, I, I write for everyone. I, I always have, but I always have a strong female lead because that's what my, uh, writerly voice is. Mm-hmm. Um, but I write for everyone, like I don't. I don't discriminate against men, so like in high school and elementary. School and stuff like that. Were you starting to write then, or was it just sort of daydreamy soap operas with Johnny and things like that? Well, I think I, when I was a kid, I knew the first couple of movies I saw, I didn't know what it was, but I want, I wanna do that. And those movies were the east. East of Eden and it's a wonderful life and I suggest people watch. It's a wonderful life with a new pair of glasses. Okay? Because it's about suicide. Mm. And it's a serious fucking movie. Everyone thinks, oh, it's Christmas time, let's, mm-hmm. We're gonna watch. It's a Wonderful Life. And Clarence is gonna get his wings and. Watch the movie. It's devastating. And, and I knew that I wanted to be in that world, whatever that was. Mm-hmm. So I knew that at, at an early age and I just found my slow path to it. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so I think I always knew it. I think I knew before Johnny and all that stuff. Yeah. And I wrote poetry when I was in high school. Which wasn't a good indicator or job, um, application for anything. But, uh, I, I then knew when my career, when I attached to the wrong director as his assistant and blah, blah, blah, I thought, I'm gonna learn how to write a script. And I had a particular voice. And so I started writing and I sold my second script and, and then it went from there. Mm-hmm. So writing really changed my life. How old were you when you sold that? God, I was a late bloomer. I'd worked in production till I was about 35 mm. So I didn't hit anything out of the park until 40 mm. So you youngins, there's time, right? There's definitely time. Definitely time. It's, it's interesting to see how much people can get done and then other people that are just kind of like waiting around and you're like, you have so many options and so many opportunities that you and I didn't have Lee when we were like growing up and access to things. And I almost feel like you don't even. Don't even, you don't have to go to college. You don't have to do anything except put your head down and figure out what it is you wanna do. And you have all the resources there. Like, it's absolutely, yeah. Incredible to find that. Yeah. And I think the, like the younger people now just think shit will happen. It does not happen. You have to go work, do not wait for it. The, the, the, you know, like. Like what's gonna, what? Something's gonna come down from the sky and all of a sudden present itself. No, it's safe and it's scary to like go out there. So they just sit. Yeah. And they do nothing and nothing will come from that. Right, right. Yeah. It's sad. Yeah.'cause we certainly come from, even though, like I said, our parents that raised us definitely didn't know what they were doing back then. But you have this sort of. It feels like everyone's trying to overprotect their kids from all of this work. They don't know how to do chores and they don't know how to do laundry and things like this. And even when my older daughter went to college, she, one of the first few weeks she was there, she Skyped me.'cause this was back then, yep. Skyped me and said, mom, you're never gonna believe this. Most of my roommates or people on my floor rather.'cause she was on a coed floor, don't know how to do their laundry. And they're asking me how to do laundry. And I'm like, oh my God. How is this even possible? And it's worse now. Well, and it's, it's worse now. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't, I just throw'em out like, like out of the moving car.'cause if they don't get their shit together, nothing's gonna happen. Li they're moving back in with you. Yeah. Yeah. And we had it way tougher, like mm-hmm. Way, way tougher. So they, they could go boo hoo, you know, COVID and the, oh, Hollywood's smaller. Well, you just don't wanna work. Mm-hmm. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. It takes so much hard work. Um, let's see, let's go on to, um, you screened the truth about Jane at the White House for the Clinton staff and the PAG families parents who had disowned their kids were in the room. You talked about the responsibility that comes with having millions of people see something you thought up in private. What story do you wish you had told by now that you haven't yet? There's no story that I wish I had told that I haven't yet. Oh wow. That's amazing. Yeah, I don't whatever the next thing in my head is. Uh, or yeah, I don't What did it feel like in the room after the screening? Well, you, the lead up to the screening was when we were, oh my God, it's so crazy. When we were going there, I got a call from GLAD and they said, you just got a death threat and Lifetime got a death threat. And I went, good. Yeah. And they went, no, that's not good. And I told S Stockard and she said, are you said good? And I said, yeah, because I pissed the right person off. Like if I'm, if you're, if you're doing nothing, risk aids. Then, then don't do it. Right. So, so we went in with that, and then all the parents and all the kids who came up to us, not only after that screening, but at the P FLAG convention in DC where they were honoring, um, Judy and Dennis Shepherd, who I dedicated the truth about Jane too, at. At, at a huge cost with Lifetime because I had a huge fight with them about that. Mm. Because they said it's, no one dies in the truth about Jane, so why you can't, we don't want you to dedicate it to Matthew. He had just been murdered. And I said, it's the climate in which he was murdered is the climate that I wrote and shot the truth about Jane and, and literally I went to GLAD and they went after. Lifetime. So they kept it on there, but the parents that came up to us and we had just done a movie and they were sharing like their kids who had committed suicide and like it was just un unreal. Mm-hmm. So, so you ask if like, if there's anything I wanna do that I haven't done? No, I think I've done it. Like, I don't, like if I, if I drop dead tomorrow, please God. Don't let that happen. Yes. I, I'm good. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. Like how long did it take you after sort of the hype around the truth about Jane to like come back to like a, a sense of safety? Did you feel, not unsafe, but did you feel unsafe for like your audience and things like that and, and the way things were going for people like the shepherds and so forth. I mean, I felt unsafe for the country, like not being as loving and tolerant as you would want them to be, but that's the way of the world. Right. Do you think it's worse now than it was then? I, I. I think it's equally bad. I think the trans situation is worse because it's so alien. I also think like, uh, the civil rights movement has regressed. Mm-hmm. Like we're in a climate, obviously I don't have to tell anyone of us versus them. Mm-hmm. And it's awful. But I think you can only, you just have to be authentic and you just have to live your truth. That's all you can do. Right. Do you find it hard sometimes to write and focus on what you're doing when all of these other things are going on and what you're writing might not necessarily have anything to do with what's going on right now? Like, how do you stay in the zone when you are, you know, hear what's happening in the news or drive down the street and you know, see bad things? Well, I try. I vote. That's number one. I give money to causes that need help. That's number two. I don't watch the news anymore. That's number three. I stopped watching the news when Joy Reed was taken off the air at M-S-N-B-C-I. So I, I tried it. Stay out of that fray. I'm, I don't ignore it, but my work is separate. So I'm writing a book now. So the book is about generations of women and also has to do with slavery and um, so we speak to those things no matter what we write. Like it's always sort of the baseline, I think. Okay, that makes sense. Um, you mentored the power up filmmaking grant winners and sat on the board at a time when the old boys club was still very much running Hollywood. What did those women teach you? The things that only someone earlier in the fight can see that you can no longer? Well, I was the oldest one on the power up board, so they didn't teach me anything. You didn't learn from the younger guys? Well, no. Most of them are working, thank God, like mm-hmm. Jamie Babbit and those guys, and like, and they're great people. We just, I just help mentor them from the old stage perspective. Mm. What's, how do you, how do you keep staying current? How do I keep staying current? Uh. I don't know. I mean, I think I watch things and I read things and I see what people respond to. And, and ultimately, I, I only question, I, only question I ask is, do I wanna watch it? Would I care? Why would I care about it? Would you care about it? Uh, and if I could answer those questions with anything I do, then the answer is yes. Mm-hmm. That's, that's worth doing it. In addition to what you're working on now, how many projects are in your head right now? Only two. Oh, really? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So once, at what point does a new idea start shaping? I'm like a two idea person. Like, I can't, like I have friends and then one of the, the people I'm writing with, Bradley Wig, who created The Fosters, he can do six things at once. I cannot, wow. I can do two. Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, it's still, that's a lot. Still too, at the same time because. I mean, if I'm reading two books at the same time, I get the second character. I know it's, I know it's hard, but we go from one to the other and we, they're so vastly different, these things. But, um. And also I have the benefit of age. I'm old enough that I don't have to hustle my ass off. Like I just don't. Right. Right. So I only really do what I want to do. I'm not throwing shit against a wall. Mm, true. Yeah. Do you wanna talk about what you and Brad are working on? Well, I can't really. Okay. We're gonna skip that. It's our first novel. Uh, and, uh, stay tuned. And then, uh, we're gonna go out with a limited. Stay tuned. Yeah, you guys stay tuned. So you've built a career telling stories about people coming into their full truth, coming out, falling in love across impossible lines, finding themselves at midlife. What part of your truth took the longest to give yourself permission to live out loud? Oh, I think coming out. Like I was, my father was a Polish Jew and my mother was a minister. Wow. So, yeah. So it, back in the day, it was not, you could not come out when you were young.'cause it would've been you're out. Goodbye. Yeah. You're disowned. Get the fuck out. Wow. So it took me a long time to come out. And when I did, my father said, well, I kind of always knew that you and Jenny were more than friends like that, okay? Mm-hmm. And then my mother started crying. Mm. And it became, what will people think about her? And I said, this is not about you. And I literally took, my mother, came around, bless her, um, but I literally took her. Words and put them in stalker's mouth and the truth about Jane. Oh, nice. Yeah, that's perfect. So it was hard to come out in that day and age. So how old were you? Oh God. So bad with yours. And I think I must have been 38 or something. Really? Yeah. 37. I don't, I don't know many how many. We'll call Jenny and ask many. How many relationships did you have and were you worried about keeping, like keeping it from your parents more than anything or keeping it from the general public? I think I was more frightened of like getting disowned. Mm-hmm. And not having a family. Mm-hmm. IDI don't think, I think I came out bef before on cruise. Mm. Before I came out to my parents.'cause that was a sit down. Holy shit. Yeah. Conversation. Um, uh, but it turned out to be fine. Yeah. I mean it, when you walked into your parents' house and you got ready to sit down and talk with them, what was like the setup? Were you, like, did you feel like you were in your own movie at that point? No, I felt like I was in my own life, I thought I was about walking into a horrible, horrible thing, like it was not gonna be fun. Yeah. And I remember it was down, down two stairs in the sun. There was a sunroom and they were sitting there and I thought, oh, here we go. Here we go. You just knew this was the day and the moment you had to do it. Yeah, well I set it up. I said, I need to come over and talk to you. Mm-hmm. And I was a hundred percent prepared, uh, to get disowned. Oh wow. Because that what happened back in the day. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, I can imagine. It's not a fun conversation, but it is. Okay. I mean, you know, my mother lived long enough to see my success and. After the truth about Jane, she said, it's a beautiful movie, Lee, but you're gonna get. Typecast doing gay movies, and I went, no, it's harder to be a female director. I think I'm all right. I think we're fine. So she really wanted me to get off the gay thing. Oh, well, don't just do gay movies. I go, mom, I don't just do gay movies. Right. So how does a Polish Jew dad and a minister of what religion in 1955 Christian? Mm. Born in Ohio. What? What's your next question? Sorry, I interrupted. No, it's okay. Like how did they meet each other? You know, if he, oh God. Okay, well that's a really weird story. So, my mom was an actress first. Not successful. Um, and being a minister is the natural transition.'cause it's all performance art, if you think about it. Um. So she was at the Pasadena Playhouse and my father went to a play and fell in love with her and she was dumb enough to marry him. Oh my God. Wow. He was not a great guy. No, no, not a friend. He was like a shitty husband and a shitty father, and lazy and smart. Really smart. Um, but who cares? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't enjoy him. I enjoyed her. Nice. Even though I had to go to her church and go to Sunday school, she had flaming, she dyed her hair flaming red and she would, you know, bang that pulpit. And I thought, oh, it's like Catherine Coolman. It's kind of interesting. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was kind of theatrical. So when you sat there, you, you could feel the performance mm-hmm. Value to it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I haven't, I mean, I've sort of thought about it like that before, but not really. But now that you mention it, like. Totally seems like that. Oh my God. Yeah. If you look at the female preachers, Amy, simple, McPherson, Katherine Coolman, they're like, they're divas. Wow. Like, they're like, it's like watching Patti Lone preach or something like that. Yeah. It's crazy. This is totally off topic, but I am so in awe of how you remember everyone's name first and last, because I do not, I cannot, and I dunno what that is, but. Wow. I kind of remember people's names. Wow. It's, mm-hmm. Absolutely fascinating. I love that. So you walk into the house, you tell the story, and as it unfolds, Uhhuh, did you feel like this more relief or anxiousness on what they were gonna say next? Uh, relief. Did they stay married until one or the other? Death, yes. Married, unfortunately. How did they married? How, yeah, I don't, back in the day, women like my mother and men, like my father just stayed and were unhappy. They didn't go. Did they have like affairs and other things going on? No. Nope. Zero. Wow. So I think, you know, the saddest thing for my mother, she didn't live the life she should have and wanted. Mm-hmm. But that genera generationally was true of tons of people. So did he die before she did? He did. Were you so relieved so you could have her to yourself or so that she could get a glimpse of what it would've been like without him? No, no, no. Death is never good because I have the opposite feeling for my parents because I know my mom feels sort of the same way, Uhhuh, that she's been sort of trapped into this. She had kids, I mean, and the story goes that they got married in January and for the next 28 days before my dad was shipped off in the Army, they had sex every day. And that's how I was became. Quincy today, and I was like, wow, that really sucks. You know? Mm-hmm. That she was really forced one to having sex every day for 28 days with somebody she ne not necessarily was attracted to at the time. Yeah. That got married because it was her high school sweetheart and so forth. And then 17 months later, my brother was born, so she didn't get to have a life. She was 19 when she had me, so Yeah. That's sad. Yeah. I just. And I look forward to, I love and care about my parents, but I do look forward to my mom getting this sort of reprieve after all of this to just. I don't know what sewing her wild oats would look like, but if it looked like ha taking various lovers, I would love that for her. If it takes, you know her around the world, I just want her ha to have this sense of, oh, I can breathe. You know, forgive me, did you tell me? Is your dad alive? He's still alive. And they're still together. They're still together. Oh, that's a problem. Mm-hmm. Since 1960. Yeah. So you gonna 1964. They've been together, so sadly like he's gotta die. Or a divorce her, which he won't. Yeah, no. He might die, but yeah. I mean, I wish that die. Apparently we are. Yeah. Someone said, you're not getting out alive. I went damnit itIt, dammit. Okay. That's so funny. So how long was she alive before? She passed. She after he died, I think she was alive for another 10 years. 11 oh months. Yeah. Nice. And she lived alone the whole time? Or was she healthy enough? Yep. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yep. I would see her three times a week. Talk to her every fucking day. Oh my God. She lived in LA so it was easy. Cute. Yep. What brought her to la? The acting bug. Yes. And your dad, where was he Born and raised. Warsaw. Oh. And then, uh, into Ellis Island when he was a, we, a boy, family of eight escaping the Nazis. Wow. Mm-hmm. Wow. So he stayed in New York for about, I don't know, 30 years and then came to la Did he impart any Jewish upbringing on No. He could care less about religion. Yeah. Did he go to your mom's church? Yeah.'cause he had to. We all had to. That's, there is no, there is no, you're not skipping it today. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So when you, when you came out and you had this opportunity to finally be yourself around them and you know, in the public eye and all that kind of thing, what was like the first thing that you thought about? How did you feel when you got into that moment? I just felt a pressure. Off. Like when a secret is lifted, there's a weight that goes with it. So, but I carried on as I, as I did mm-hmm. In the industry and my life. That's great. But when I would go home with, when I would bring women home and trust me, there aren't a ton. I had long-term relationships several times, but, um, and they knew all of them until they died. Until my mother died. Oh yeah. Okay. Well that's good. Yeah. I thought you meant all of your exes died and I'm like, oh, this is so, oh, no, I know. I thought, well, that's horrible then. I'm a horrible, bad luck charm. No, they're all alive, knock on wood. And I'm, and I talk to all of'em. Oh, that's so great. Yeah. That is so great. I, I admire people that can continue to have those relationships. I have some with some of my exes, but not all of them. Yeah. Um. But I think, and I tell people this all the time, like you, you at some point were friends with this person, and you fell in love with this person for a reason. Why does it have to end so tragically and not have any sort of connection after that? Because they fulfilled a purpose, right? They served a place in your life and in your heart for very specific reasons. And to completely sever that sometimes is really hard. And why? Why would you need to, you know? Well, I mean, it. Yeah, and I, I have favorites, don't get me wrong. I have, uh, you know, I could go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 of my top ones. But yeah, I pick them as a person, as a friend. Um, but I think that if they went down some other weird road, then that would be difficult to continue a relationship with them. Thank God I picked really sort of ordinary. They're not ordinary. They're extraordinary women, but they're good people. Mm. That's good. What's your advice? And they're adults. Oh, nice. Hello. Being an adult is very important. Being an adult's huge, as we were just talking about kids that can't do their laundry. Mm-hmm. Find their way out of a paperback. Mm-hmm. Sorry, kids, but work hard. Sorry. Get your shit together, kitties. You're gonna be out in the cold. Mommy and daddy are not gonna take you back in again 80 times. Oh my God. That's what they're doing. You failure to launch is real. Right? It's so real. Yeah. So real. So what's your favorite vice? What's my what? Favorite Vice. Vice Uhhuh. Uh, a um, kettle One martini up with blue cheese. Olives dry. And we've shared a couple of those. We have in that easy on the vermouth, please, people. There you go. When did you stop smoking? Oh God, 30 years ago. What made you decide to quit? I was shooting something in Toronto in the middle of winter, and I had to go 20 floors down. In this freezing blizzard snow with my big Canada goose on to light a cigarette. And I said to myself, you, this is pathetic. Like you're a fucking loser. So I, I just quit cold Turkey, cold Turkey. And I, and I say, if I see people smoking now, I go, if I can quit, any asshole can quit. Wow. And I just did. I'm so happy I did. That's awesome. God, that's awesome. Does it just make you nauseous now when you even smell? It's kind of gross. And I think more, I look at people and I go, you're killing yourself. Mm-hmm. So I, I thank God escaped lung cancer, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's no good. Exactly. Any parting words? Have a safe trip on the cruise. Oh, thank you. Those are my parting. Oh yeah. So we're going on a cruise, folks. Sorry. Don't, don't. You can erase that. You don't gotta tell people where you go. Well, they're not gonna be able to find me by the time this comes out. Oh good. Yeah. Okay. Well, she's back and she had quite the time. The time of her life. That's what she did. All you people that can't afford a cruise Right. With a bunch of, uh, God knows what on the boat. Just write and do, do everything you can get out in the world. Yeah. Work doesn't, nothing's free. Right, right. Well, thank you so much. You, you're going on. Welcome. I really appreciate this.'cause I know when we first talked about this, this was not something you were super wild about. So I appreciate you for coming around and feeling like it was something you wanted to do. Yes. You, I'm one of the few people that does not like to talk about themselves, but do you think that I. Did a decent job of not making you actually focus on yourself and more. Oh, a hundred percent. Okay. You did your research. Okay, good. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great night everybody. Bye. Bye.